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Friday, March 28, 2014

The Flat Coat Mafia...LOL

ALL FCR can be traced back to just a few foundation dogs

What is this Flat Coat Mafia?  Who are they?  Why are they important to Chatham Hill Dogs? 
  1. This is the loving name given to control freaks that breed FCR.
  2. They are the biggest haters of the Chatham Hill Retrievers.
  3. Most of our Flat Coated Retrievers were provided by them
So every time they disparage our dogs the irony is they are literally disparaging their own lines from whence our dogs came.  Every time they question health they fail to review their own dogs which were the source of ours in the first place.  They also seem to forget the origins of their own dogs from whence the FCR breed was begotten.   And they fail to realize that with all the care they take in performing health tests for their own dogs ( "Ahem" - lines our dogs came from) they really haven't made a dent in the horrible health statistics and prolific cancer rates they see with respect to their beloved breed.  Yet instead of looking at what they've produced and possibly saying what they should do, or could do and still can do drastically different to reverse the figures.  They continue to do the same things they always have.
  1. Closely Line-Breed from their champions only
  2. Use a common SIRE to create more of the same
  3. Use a common DAM  to create more of the same
Then when their dogs die.... they openly cry about it over social media and think that will make things better.  I have yet to see any mention of any of them actually doing something tangible to make a difference.  Instead they buy more of the same dogs from the same sources of all their misery.   And contribute physical test results to a continually growing and very inconclusive database and believe this is their contribution to a better tomorrow for their beloved breed.  Complacent stupidity is their answer.  Okay.... see me in a few more years and let me know how that's going for you.

We always let haters know that if they're going to start talking out of their asses and making assumptions without having ever met us or being witness to how we do things....then we're going to make fun of them.  And point out for educational purposes just why they are stupid.  And on our blog we have every right to share this.   If you wish to question our statistics... simply question our clients.  And if you want to compare notes.... put up or shut up.  Show us how good or bad the results of your decisions have been and we'll compare notes.  With nothing to hide, since all of our dogs are out there in this world and all the owners are constantly reporting back to us.  So, we do know what's going on with our dogs.  In the end its the outcomes that matter.  And ours are pretty impressive.

What's really stupid about the misinformation provided here.  Is she seems to think that we would look to perpetuate health problems in some quest for money.  That the fee we charge is absurd for being as selective in our process as the most elitist of her circle of FCR breeders. In fact we're likely more detailed in our whelping process and socializing that ANY of her breeders.  We know we're better at it than the breeder of our dogs that she likely got her's from, too.

We've made tough decisions before about removing Studs, Dams and even an entire lines of Chatties in order to avoid health problems from possibly doubling up.  But, this same hater can go on making whatever assumptions based off her imagination and elitist thinking.  And of course believing her actions are far better than mine for doing something positive for dogdom.  Nah...Lets face it...she's talking from ASSumptions.  Thats what haters do.  Just Click here for a reveal of how we did make such decisions.

We do have a wonderful veterinary service that provides us with excellent information on our dogs and our pups.  With all the proper certifications in place to provide the very subjective opinions associated with any physical tests that are available.  And they will still reiterate the same claims made by geneticists and modern medical practitioners...  There is no way to determine the outcomes of resulting pups from physical tests on the parents.   To make such claims would be lying.  You can however make a very good assessment of the current condition of the specimen in front of you being subjected to these physical tests.  But, the second a breeder says...the parents were tested so the puppies will be good.  They are blowing smoke out their asses and flat out lying. 

Some familiar names here.  Not surprising at all.  Their way of thinking is never going to change for them.  In the end most of them seem to think flaunting a champion dog and the wins achieved is somehow representative of that dog's health.  Right, Uhh I guess they also still believe in Santa Claus.

Champion royal lineages and examples of superior physical specimens in Human history have already pointed out just how stupid many of these elitist haters are in their thinking.  The major fail here is they can't even begin to realize how they mirror this in their beliefs about purity in the breed they love so much.  There's really good highlights of some excellent examples of this here.

We're not the newbies anymore.  And we have a database of useful information from our clientele with respect to our dogs and how that compares to the given statistics the "Mafia" always seems to reflect upon.  And we apologize to said "Mafia" since we really don't have the same horrible curve of failures that they seem to still be experiencing. They're functioning with long standing traditions and practices they feel offer them this false sense of entitlement to dictate how others approach the problem with the FCR gene pool.

As for creating a new breed...
Let's review two breeds of dogs that are pretty recent in our history.

  • Boykin Spaniels - Been developed over three decades
  • Duck Tolling Retrievers - Also developed over the last 3 decades
The Chatham Hill Retriever is still being developed.  Only a decade in thus far.  Keep your eye on this blog.

 And there are many more than just these 2 mentioned.  Recent dog breeds are being created and recognized by registries and the idiots like the "Mafia" don't even realize it.  Here's a list of recent breeds introduced just within the previous few decades

Notice how recent many of these breeds are.  And guess what... they were created by man using selective techniques that our ancestors did.   They had standards created that they are bred to and a stud book to track all the dogs used in the process of developing these breeds.  

But wait there's still more recently created breeds.....

So I wonder what the stupid "Mafia" has done.  They certainly haven't made any stepping stone breeds in an attempt to try and improve the breed they love so much.   Some of them might be speaking of doing so... but they stupidly suggested using Labradors or even Goldens.....   And they say we have issues????

Here's a couple of examples of dogs that were aided with outcrossing....

Here's a Pointer - Dalamation outcross formerly known as the LUA Dalmation.  I say formerly known ... because the LUA Dalmations have now been folded into the foundation gene pool for Dalmations and accepted by the AKC.  There ya go you stupid retarded "Mafia".

Or how about this....

Here's an outcross between a Corgi and a Boxer formerly known as the bob-tailed boxer.  Oh but wait...  this too was folded into the gene pool of existing boxers and is now just a boxer born with a tail that does not require being docked...Imagine that???  Soak it in you stupid "Mafia" people.

Outcrossing is the best way to fix a breed with a limited gene pool and a small breeding population.  Sound familiar?   That would describe the breed you love.

BUT WAIT... What About genetic level testing to completely isolate and identify lines of dogs that carry a common hereditary problem?.....  Well yes there is an excellent example of a dog saved using these methods.... this a Flat Coated retriever.....Ummm no but it is one of the breeds used in the creation of the breed.  Its an Irish Setter which at one point not so long couldn't find one that could get past its prime without going BLIND!!!  It wasn't a physical test for PRA (premature Retinal Atrophy) that helped to isolate the lines with blind dogs and force the decision to eliminate entire lines of Irish Setters from any future breeding programs.   It was actually identifying the gene that was the cause of it.  Something that is a conclusive tool for predicting the outcomes of puppies.....let that sink in you Ms hater.

BY THE WAY.... I'll add for the other idiots posting on this hater's facebook page....the mother dictate's the size of the puppies born.  not the father.   So the puppies for a Cocker mom will be born at a size the mom can handle.  Cockers are not a toy or teacup mutation, they are a variation of Springers and Field Spaniels that used to be born from the same litters.  Puppies won't come out as mutant giants based on the size of the father.   This is so stupid.   Even in humans a midget wife is not going to burst open from giving birth to a baby from her 6 foot tall husband.   A short stature husband does not produce a squirt of a baby from a 6 ft tall Amazon.   Again this is just stupid haters from the FCR Mafia trying to perpetuate lies.  

Its written therefore what you think we're doing is called libel you idiot.  Get an education before you try to portray yourself as intelligent.  As for the other idiot... yes you do qualify for a high ranking asshat.   Glad you enjoy the title.

Oh and before you idiots decide to reply as critics of my writing saying how it comes across as angry....DUH..... it's aimed at you and anyone who thinks purity of bloodlines and adherence to stupid traditions of physical tests to predict outcomes is the proper way to breed dogs.   This is our blog... we can share our experiences and if you don't like it.... SUCK IT.

Its you haters with everything to prove.  And going by the current track records... there's a lot more to be concerned or embarrassed about from your end.

So how did those physical tests help your puppy predictions ???? 


PS. Judy Perkins..... Before you go on about what you believe is a lot of litters "hitting the ground already"   Keep in mind how many dogs we have for a diversity breeding program and the purpose behind maintaining that....if the concern is we're overbreeding any are off the mark.  We routinely refresh our lineup and always retire dogs after they've had up to 4 litters....some after one or two.  However, as long as we've been doing this you've constantly had your nose way up in there trying to make a best guess as to how we do things...  Here's a guess.  You're trying too hard to find something bad when the only bad thing is a miserable shrew called Judy. We had one puppy up until yesterday sold by its 12th week,  out of 16 puppies that all went by their 8th week that does not translate into having a hard time selling it... it does however reveal you are a nosey bitch with a lot of time on her hands.  I'm glad interest in us consumes your boredom.

You can take every FCR in the world and throw them in an arena together and discover that.they're all related
Carla Cunningham.... What I have on my blog is a picture of a Liver Flatties.  I have many of these.  You may have an opinion, but when its rallying people in a drive to get them to stand behind you in an effort to  disparage and provide a negative perspective about people you've never met, never spoke to or taken the time to visit, then what you're doing is fueled by prejudice and hate and in the real world you are the bully.  What I'm not doing is starting a smear campaign which adds lots of evidence for a defamation lawsuit.  That is what you are doing.  What I provide are facts about your practices and traditions on my blog.  My having a picture of a Flattie on my blog is the least of your worries.  I have no need to prove anything to someone who only takes the time to make assumptions and rally what amounts to a mob.  I do however have a blog and exercise my freedom of speech to defend my family when an hater such as yourself decides to attack us. You called crying to wave a white flag, yet made no offer to remove your smear tactic off a social media site.  So, in return I say get yourself a good lawyer and prepare to spend a LOT of money explaining your actions.  You can call us directly and explain your perspective, but you have no right to attack people you don't know based on your personal belief system.  Especially when it concerns matters of disclosure of private information.   But, just to settle the simple arguement....I have had no dogs die from Cancer, none have had PRA, One has luxating patella determined as a congenital condition existing from birth , Two have had poor hips also determined as a congenital condition existing from birth.  None have died from natural causes.  in a decade of doing this we provide puppies with a 0% Coi.... anything more is unacceptable.  In the end the measure of my outcomes.... IS FAR BETTER than the outcomes of all the FCR mafia combined.

AND THAT IS A FACT.  my outcomes are far better than any you've had in your breeding practices.

You provide  the world with how many of your puppies have died or are suffering and from what....and then we'll compare notes....because simply said...none of mine have died, none are suffering and 170+ puppies later all are alive and kicking.   So just prepare to feel embarrassed.  Or....remove your entry sharing my video with your words of hate and I'll reconsider how I've worded things on MY BLOG.  Until then you can SUCK IT.

Yours Truly
Mr. Cruz


  1. It is not a requirement to disclose any genetic testing to anyone other than your buyers (if they ask). I show and do stuff with my corgis but I applaud purpose bred dogs. You love your dogs and it shows. I love the small retriever/spaniel type dogs - you fill a niche for a lot of people.

    One day when I am ready I would love a Chattie.

    Haters Gonna Hate. Brush your shoulders off and hug your dogs. :)

  2. It makes you question whether there is a neurological chemical imbalance with many of these haters. Some are borderline extremist.

    I'll add that We use different variations of spaniels that share the same history. Cockers of the American and the English variant, Field of the English variant and Springers of the English Variant. As well as Pointers with a very similar phenotype and temperament of the Long Haired Weimaraner variant. We are working with breeders of a few other breeds in our quest to further diversify the Chatham Hill Retriever. and in the end provide something back to the FCR beyond looking to a Labrador/Golden outcross.

    There is just too much in common with the history of Goldens, Labradors and FCR to really think that interbreeding between 3 already "broken" breeds is the solution. They share too many similar diseases and have a history in the stud books that is already intermingled.

    It would be more intuitive to look deeper into the history and go back further than the registries. And in fact see each breed as just a "TYPE" and mix...outcross, select the best from those results then backcross. Select the best and then backcross again and again ..until you have the look and feel of the dog you desire. Then Select another ingredient from that "TYPE's" historical past and do it all over again with a third tyoe of dog then a fourth then a fifth. End goal....Until you truly have a diverse specimen and the look and feel of the targeted phenotype in form, function and temperament. You keep hammering away at it.

    1. Very true. I learned a lot since entering into the dog world - my new "me" is ashamed old me after what I learned. We never can learn too much.

      I love the Long Hair Weims BTW. Really stunning dogs - like their look better than the short haired ones.

      Cocker Spaniels are near and dear to my heart - we had one that was healthy until she died at almost 14 (we think - don't know her exact DOB) and another who is allergic to grass and dust (among other things). We did not buy these dogs from breeders, we got them second hand. After Lady (she came with the name) passes, I would love a healthy small-ish spaniel/retriever dog as a companion. No "breed" fits the bill until I came upon your dogs. Even show cocker breeders - too much hair and overangulated (seems to be a thing with the show setters and spaniels for some reason). Cavaliers as adorable as they are - not going there with a 10 ft pole with their health issues. Chatties seem awesome.

      Keep on doing what you are doing!


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